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Topic: God, please, why do devils exist in this world??? This lucifer trying to make Him ...
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Enda Crowley |
posted 09-03-2000 02:22 PM PT (US)
God, please, why do devils exist in this world??? This lucifer trying to make Him seem dusty is really an eyesore, and it smacks of 1980's calling someone who may have a good reason to against TOO MUCH technology as a wacho. Please, people, I want to get loads of enlightening replies, in support of Nader, and attacking that airhead of a nerd who seems like Bill Gates in disguise. Go Nader Go. Also, if you know this guy, please give him a punch or two to knock some sense into him.
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Enda Crowley
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posted 09-03-2000 03:02 PM PT (US)
Sorry fellow activists, I forgot to include the link to that airhead's article:http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/20000901/tc/ralph_nader_analog_anachronism_1.html
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fraedom
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posted 09-03-2000 03:46 PM PT (US)
I sent him a lil somethin. Tried, unsuccessfully, not to get hateful. |
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james
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posted 09-03-2000 05:59 PM PT (US)
Let me say that not since the Book of Job has the devil ( also referred to as the adversery) vanished. The perservence of Job vanquished him. We, too like Job must perceiver. We must all work together to make this movement a force to be reckoned with in this country. Like I tell everyone, Its not about Nader, its about us |
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dravazed
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posted 09-04-2000 07:07 AM PT (US)
The sneering tone of this fellow's article was certainly offputting. This sometimes happens when a person makes it big in some area, and then along comes a critique by a former hero...and the newly rich success feels personally criticized. That may be what happened here. Ralph has forthrightly said some critical things about technology and Silicon Valley, and the fellow who wrote this piece didn't like Ralph's remarks. So, he wrote the very dismissive and unfair piece we lament. I sent him a very brief email, which simply said, "Please consider this." I included a link which I provide for you now. It is an excellent article, which I discovered just a few minutes ago: http://www.latimes.com/business/cutting/20000904/t000083075.html |
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Enda Crowley
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posted 09-05-2000 03:14 PM PT (US)
I also think its about people who think their field of study is beyond criticism etc, who love to spout about their claptrap, and when they are challenged, they whinge. You often hear wisdomless scientists going on about GM foods and other monstrosities with a certain nievity(is that spelling right?) and as if there are no faults. This has been the case with nearly everything these scientists have spouted, i.e. nuclear power and incineration. You know what i mean? lol Heres an article i got in a newsletter(which u can sign up to from www.feasta.org), which was in the Guardian, an English nespaper, that says organic farming is as good as GM and better:Organic Farming Will Feed the World Astonishingly, it's more productive than high-tech agriculture. By George Monbiot. Published in the Guardian 24th August 2000 The advice could scarcely have come from a more surprising source. "If anyone tells you that GM is going to feed the world," Steve Smith, a director of the world's biggest biotechnology company, Novartis, insisted, "tell them that it is not. ... To feed the world takes political and financial will - it's not about production and distribution." Mr Smith was voicing a truth which most of his colleagues in the biotechnology companies have gone to great lengths to deny. On a planet wallowing in surfeit, people starve because they have neither the land on which to grow food for themselves nor the money with which to buy it. There is no question that, as population increases, the world will have to grow more, but if this task is left to the rich and powerful - big farmers and big business - then, irrespective of how much is grown, people will become progressively hungrier. Only a redistribution of both land and wealth can save the world from mass starvation. But in one respect Mr Smith is wrong. It is - in part - about production. A series of remarkable experimental results has shown that the growing techniques which his company and many others have sought to impose upon the world are, in contradiction to everything we have been brought up to believe, actually less productive than some of the methods developed by traditional farmers over the past 10,000 years. Last week, Nature magazine reported the results of one of the biggest agricultural experiments ever conducted. A team of Chinese scientists had tested the key principle of modern rice-growing - planting a single, high-tech variety across hundreds of hectares - against a much older technique: planting several breeds in one field. They found, to the astonishment of the farmers who had been drilled for years in the benefits of "monoculture", that reverting to the old method resulted in spectacular increases in yield. Rice blast - a devastating fungus which normally requires repeated applications of poison to control - decreased by 94 per cent. The farmers planting a mixture of strains were able to stop applying their poisons altogether, while producing 18 per cent more rice per acre than they were growing before. Two years ago, another paper published in Nature showed that yields of organic maize are identical to yields of maize grown with fertilisers and pesticides, while soil quality in the organic fields dramatically improves. In trials in Hertfordshire, wheat grown with manure has produced consistently higher yields for the past 150 years than wheat grown with artificial nutrients. Professor Jules Pretty of Essex University has shown how farmers in India, Kenya, Brazil, Guatemala and Honduras have doubled or tripled their yields by switching to organic or semi-organic techniques. A study in the United States reveals that small farmers growing a wide range of plants can produce ten times as much money per acre as big farmers growing single crops. Cuba, forced into organic farming by the economic blockade, has now adopted it as policy, having discovered that it improves both the productivity and the quality of the crops its farmers grow. High-tech farming, by contrast, is sowing ever graver problems. This year, food production in Punjab and Haryana, the Indian states long celebrated as the great success stories of modern, intensive cultivation has all but collapsed. The new crops the farmers there have been encouraged to grow demand far more water and nutrients than the old ones, with the result that, in many places, both the ground water and the soil have been exhausted. We have, in other words, been deceived. Traditional farming has been stamped out all over the world not because it is less productive than monoculture, but because it is, in some respects, more productive. Organic cultivation has been characterised as an enemy of progress for the simple reason that it cannot be monopolised: it can be adopted by any farmer anywhere on earth, without the help of multinational companies. Though it is more productive to grow several species or several varieties of crops in one field, the biotech companies must reduce diversity in order to make money, leaving farmers with no choice but to purchase their most profitable seeds. This is why they have spent the last ten years buying up seed breeding institutes and lobbying governments to do what ours has done: banning the sale of any seed which has not been officially - and expensively - registered and approved. All this requires an unrelenting propaganda war against the tried and tested techniques of traditional farming, as the big companies and their biddable scientists dismiss them as unproductive, unsophisticated and unsafe. The truth, so effectively suppressed that it is now almost impossible to believe, is that organic farming is the key to feeding the world. |
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DKM
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posted 09-05-2000 03:41 PM PT (US)
Ummm, -Don't get me wrong, we are on the same side here - but please don't be one of those who generally discredits scientists as being "naive self-serving blind nerds" (not your exact words, but close to the sentiment expressed above I think?). As a scientist, I feel personally compelled to point out that this is a stereotype that is not only wrong but highly destructive to your own goals, as it is largely scientists who have let you know and made BIG noises about some of the things that are hurting you. In my field, for instance, it is scientists who are studying ozone layer depletion, who are studying the effects of CO2 on our climate, who are documenting rising sea level, glacial recession. And for the most part, they care very much about our planet. I daresay on average that they care more than the average citizen. I suspect that one can say the same for chemists and medical scientists as well. Look at the reasearch being done on pesticides and the human (and animal) body for a quick example. There are certainly a segment of scientists employed by corporate America that have an agenda, will sort the facts to fit that agenda, and will be advertised in the media heavily, but I don't think that describes most of us. Sorry to all, I know this doesn't really relate to the thread, but it is a sore point with me and other really hard working, passionate, and dedicated people. We may or may not be "nerds" in your accouting books, but we are very often nerds that do you big service. |
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Enda Crowley
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posted 09-05-2000 03:44 PM PT (US)
YES!!!! YES!!!! I just read that article in the LA Times on Nader and technology:http://www.latimes.com/business/cutting/20000904/t000083075.html Its really good. In total contrast to the horrifying one I started this BB with. Go Nader!!!
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Enda Crowley
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posted 09-05-2000 03:50 PM PT (US)
DKM, its not a side issue, I concede that I should not generalise. I am merely going on E.F. Schumacher's assertion that science seems to lack 'wisdom' as to 'what' to do with scientific 'know-how'. I'm not sure that I am representing his views properly, so I apologise for that. Please read his excellent book, one which has been included somewhere in one of the 20 or 100 books of the 20th century, 'Small is beautiful, a study of economics as if people mattered'. For a bit of info, search for E.F. Schumacher on the net, and you will get a few good sites on him. Also, go to www.feasta.org Sorry DKM if I have caused offence. |
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DKM
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posted 09-05-2000 03:55 PM PT (US)
Enda:Wasn't offended or even angry for that matter. I kind of knew it was one of those off-hand remarks, Just pushes a button is all, and I couldn't let it slide. :-) I think I let all of today's bile (the whole range of todays postings on the forum, I mean) get me frustrated... Peace, |
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Enda Crowley
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posted 09-10-2000 04:56 PM PT (US)
DKM, on a further note, would you say that science has been hijacked by business for profit's sake? (GM foods) This is my belief. Scientists seem to be without exception(there are a few thank God) FOR these GM foods, and preach that they will feed the world, when the average person and other pundits know downright to the contrary. The point also that I would like to make in terms of GM foods, is that in the EU(where I live), GM companies(backed up by scientists) refuse at all cost to accept liability if these GM foods pose a danger, even when they preach that they are so safe!!!! |
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DKM
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posted 09-14-2000 11:43 AM PT (US)
Enda: I almost sent a personal reply to this to keep it going to the top of the board. I decided that perhaps it is peripherally related to Ralph's message, so I'll post once more here.You (and others too) get the impression that scientists are wholeheartedly *for* genetic engineering. I haven't actually gotten that impression at all. It is scientific studies that have pointed out some problems that are already happening. I am not really up on the issue, but difficulties with super-weeds, cross contamination of pollen, and killing beneficial insects have been pointed out by *scientists*. Yes, there are those scientist who go on record with the "will feed the world" bit. A BIG question comes to mind. Who is footing the bill? Sometimes these scientists are employed by the very companies pushing the product. Which is indeed despicable and I hope there is a special place in hell for these "people". I think that these instances are rare even if they get a lot of spectacular (and paid for) press from the - you guessed it - *corporate owned media*... neat how this comes together, huh? But there is another problem which is more insidious, and (to me) much more disturbing. It makes even good guys unwitting "bad guys". Let me tell you some of what happens in the research world. Funding is scarce. It is expensive to fund large experiments, and the money is very hard to come by. Competition is fierce within public funding agencies. Now, in my field, this remains the primary source of funding anyway. However, *by my understanding* (I am not an expert), many scientists (particularly in biologic/agriculture/chemical fields) find that in order to have the capital to run an experiment, they apply for grants from corporations. In itself this is grand. It has provided some incredible advancements. The problem comes in when they accept these funds, it turns out that the contract that they sign very often has fine print that says that the results of the study belong to the corporation, thus cannot be released without the corporations say-so. You see what happens, right? The research finds that "xx" product is bad for you, you never get to publish it or talk about it. The research finds that "xx" product is good, it makes headlines. Thus, the public can be left with the impression that: a: these XX's must all be good for me because the *scientists* say so, or b: scientists must all be conservative crazies with an agenda. None of the above need be true. Yet another way that corporate America can hold our lives in the balance. GoNader. |
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dravazed
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posted 09-14-2000 12:20 PM PT (US)
Excellent, excellent points. I hope that you make this knowledge available to as wide an audience as you can reach--consider writing something for Science in the Public Interest, or one of the green organizations. Beyond this campaign, the sort of insights you offer will continue to be important to the wellbeing of all of us. |
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GeordisMother
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posted 09-14-2000 01:13 PM PT (US)
No one that I could consider a genuine scientist would be on an ethical leash to the corporte killers. Try this link to the Union of Concerned Scientists. http://www.ucsusa.org/ |
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DKM
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posted 09-14-2000 01:27 PM PT (US)
quote:>no one that I could consider a genuine scientist would be on an ethical leash to the corporte killers.< Easy to recognize a 'leash' for what it is in hindsight. Not always so in foresight. Thesse are largely standard contracts. You want the money, you sign. You don't, go wait tables somewhere. Never forget that scientists have kids to feed too. |
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BCABC
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posted 09-14-2000 01:42 PM PT (US)
Which brings up the question of where does a scientist go for research funding when public monies and contracts are being reduced or cancelled.Private industry. If you want more integrity in research you need more public funds. Corporations value profit over contributing to the persuit of scientific knowledge. |
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Enda Crowley
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posted 09-16-2000 01:56 PM PT (US)
I'd like to bring up the topic of other devils:those who call Greens, 'anti-capitalist'. The people who want laissez-faire economics, with absolutely no regulation, and are anti-Public Transport, and pro car-lobby. First of all, the Greens are not left or right. They are for economic growth in so far as it does not harm the environment or people. What do you all think about these devils? |
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Enda Crowley
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posted 09-16-2000 01:58 PM PT (US)
www.feasta.orgThe above site details the economics that the Greens are about. A very good article by Richard Douthwaite, 'Good Growth and Bad Growth'. |